FEB. 13, 14, 1828.]

Navy Appropriations.—Internal Improvements.

[H. or R.

President of the United States may think necessary and
proper, to provide live oak, and other timber, for the
use of the Navy of the United States, a sum not ex-
ceeding ten thousand dollars, to be paid out of the mo-
neys appropriated for the gradual increase of the Navy
of the United States, by the first section of the act, en-
titled "An act for the gradual improvement of the Na-
vy of the United States,” approved 3d March, 1827.”
Mr. HOFFMAN stated, in explanation, that the Se-
cretary of the Navy, endeavoring to fulfil a law passed
at the last session, for reserving certain portions of the
public land on which timber fit for ship building was
found, had experienced considerable difficulty from the
intervention of private claims, which, though small in
amount, must be satisfied before the law could be car-
ried into effect. This was especially the case in Flori-
da. It was with a view to the extinction of the private
titles that he had moved the amendment.

The question being put, it was adopted without opposition.

Mr. HOFFMAN then moved to fill the blank in the section which provides for the pay and subsistence of officers, with $1,100,081 75, instead of $1,176,312, which had been proposed by the Committee of Ways and Means, in conformity with the estimates from the Navy Department.

that information had just been received from the Southward, that great danger was apprehended from the rise of piracy in the Gulf of Mexico. Applications on that subject had this day been received at the Navy Department, from the Insurance Companies of Philadelphia and New York, and others would no doubt follow, from Boston and elswhere, urging the propriety of stationing an additional force in the Carribean sea, in consequence of the proclamation of Commodore Porter, inviting privateers into the Mexican service. While this increase of our Naval force was required in that quarter, the service in the Pacific, on the coast of Brazil, and above all, in the Mediterranean, would not allow of any diminution. Mr. S. insisted, that the power of appointing officers was properly vested, and that, as long as the House could check it by the amount of appropriations, there was no need of regulating the number of officers by legislative enactment. As to a Peace Establishment, the Navy knew no such thing as peace. From its creation to this day, it had been in perpetual service. Our commerce had required incessant protection, and was likely now to require still more in the Gulf of Mexico, and in the Mediterranean. If a Peace Establishment was fixed at all, it must be fixed at a maximum of what was likely to be required, which would be a very extravagant arrangement. The ships and men of a Navy might be changed, but its officers grew up from childhood in the service, and could only be ma- Mr. HOFFMAN then made a speech, of considerable tured by long practice and experience. It was now the length, in support of his motion, in which he went over settled policy of this Nation, that its Navy was to be grad-nearly the same grounds as he had taken in the debate ually increased; and, if so, the number of officers ought to increase with it. Congress had fixed the number and size of its ships, and therein had done all that was required of them, towards fixing the number of officers. Should the service be cut too short of officers, it might chance to fail on the very point most exposed, and a loss be thereby incurred far greater than all the petty saving which might be produced by curtailing the appropriation. Mr. HOFFMAN now spoke in reply. The Naval Register assigned eight vessels to the West India station. These were more than sufficient to guard against any dan gers in that quarter. He thought the past history of our Navy was sufficient to shew that no naval nursing and schooling from infancy, was required to form able and accomplished officers. The merchant-service supplied such training; and an officer of spirit would rather return to that service, when out of active employ in the Navy, than receive a salary which he did not earn. He oppos ed the necessity of fixing a permanent Peace Establishment to the extent suggested. He professed his zeal for maintaining this arm of the national defence, on which he bestowed very liberal commendations, but opposed the position that the number of officers was to go on continually increasing. Peace might last a quarter of a century, and yet, at this rate, the expense of the Navy will be so enormously increased, that it might at length constitute one-half of the expense of the Government.

Mr. H. concluded by moving that the committee rise to give time for procuring further information from the Navy Department, but withdrew the motion at the request of

of yesterday. He did not wish to interfere with the officers attached to vessels in actual service, nor with those that would be required for the increase of the service, which had been proposed by the Secretary of the Navy. He wished only to prevent the increase of the number of officers waiting orders. The increase of these persons proposed by the Department included 4 captains, 7 masters commandant, 28 lieutenants, 12 sur geons, 11 surgeons' mates, 4 pursers, and 65 midshipmen; the amount of whose united pay and subsistence would be $76,230 25. This sure he wished cut off from the appropriation.

The motion of Mr. HOFFMAN gave rise to a debate, which occupied the House till four o'clock, and which, in the subjects treated, and the arguments employed, resembled so nearly that of yesterday, that a detailed report of it would be little more than a repetition.

The motion was opposed by Messrs. SPRAGUE, GILMER, INGERSOLL, WOOD, of New York, BARTLETT, DRAYTON, and WEEMS; and advocated by Mr. HOFFMAN, in a closing speech, in which he replied to the several gentlemen who had opposed the motion.

The question being then put first upon the larger
sum moved by the Committee of Ways and Means, it
was carried in the affirmative-Ayes 104, Noes 53.
The committee then rose and reported the bill.

THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 14, 1828.
INTERNAL IMPROVEMENTS.
The House went into Committee of the Whole on the
state of the Union, and took up the bill making appropri
Itations for internal improvements.

Mr. SERGEANT, who replied in explanation. was true, that the Naval Register gave eight vessels to the West India station, but of these, only three were in that service at this time, the Erie, the Grampus, and the Natchez; the others being in port undergoing repairs. On motion of Mr. LITTLE, the committee rose, reported, and obtained leave to sit again.

WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 13, 1828. NAVY APPROPRIATIONS. Mr. HOFFMAN moved the following: "And be it further enacted, That there be, and hereby is, appropriated, for the purchase of such lands as the

Mr. SPRAGUE moved to amend the bill by increas ing the appropriation for removing obstructions at Lovejoy's Narrows, from $2,500 to $3,500.

Mr. S. said, that the Kennebec river, at this place, was narrow and rapid; and in the centre of the current were two rocks, one rising above, and the other lying just below the surface of the water. The force of the current propelled vessels directly upon these rocks, and of course they could be passed only when the wind was strong enough, and in the right direction to [command the vessel and control the current. For this they frequently had to wait, and sometimes in considerable

FEB. 14, 1828.]

Internal Improvements.

[H. OF R

now in progress, which were not more than half com pleted, and the question was, whether the House would withdraw the means of completing them. A discussion of the general policy of the plan, was out of place on an appropriation bill. Whatever might be decided as to carrying such a system of internal improvement into effect, these surveys were of great advantage to the American People. Should that system never be adopted, this mass of information could not fail to be useful. The constitutional question of power did not fairly arise, on a proposal to employ the Engineers already at the disposal of the War Department, in a particular manner. Should the time ever arrive when we have more in the Treasury than we know what to do with, the argument of the gentleman from Virginia [Mr. BARBOUR] might have some force. But the question now was, whether the House would arrest these surveys? Mr. B. for one, would not do it. He would give the Administration the sum now asked, and would hold them responsible for its application.

provided for any appropriation beyond that year. No works had been accomplished, and there was nothing to shew of the large sums expended, but maps and plats. Mr. M. dwelt with emphasis upon the divided and distressed state of the country. Those engaged in manufactures complained, and agriculturists were still worse off. He insisted that this was not a proper time to expend $30,000 a year on plans and estimates. If the Government had adopted any thing like a regular system of operation, he could more willingly submit to such an expenditure. He disavowed all sectional feeling in this matter, but one thing was certain-not an Engineer had made his appearance in the State from which he came. Mr. P. P. BARBOUR supported the motion to strike out. He declined entering on the constitutional question, having gone into it at large on former occasions. He adverted to the subject now, only to declare that no change had taken place in his opinions on that point. He resisted the appropriation on the ground of expediency, anticipating the time (likely soon to arrive) when the national debt should have been discharged, Mr. BARNEY said he felt no sickly sensibility on the and when the ten millions, now set apart as a sinking constitutional question, which had already been ably fund, would be at liberty to be applied to the object of and fully discussed, and which he considered as definiinternal improvements. He insisted that its employ- tively settled. The General Government entered no ment by the General Government would unsettle the State, even to make surveys, without the full consent balance of the Constitution, and destroy the salutary of that State. Where then could be the danger to State equilibrium between the General and State Govern- rights? He would go on and collect all the topographical ments. The power to employ so large a sum in works information possible. Then it would be easier to decide of this nature would enable the General Government to how the surplus should be applied when that happy mil. hold out to those States who deny the constitutional lenium arrived, to which the gentleman from Virginia power so to apply it, a constant and strong temptation to had alluded. If the Union was to be perpetuated, it would abandon their principles, and they must either do this be by providing facilities for the intercourse of its inhabi against their conscience, or see these benefits lavished tants; and as to its dissolution, he so deeply abhorred the upon other States, while they were necessarily exclud- idea, that he could almost consent to make it death even ed. He objected to the measure on another ground, to speak of such a thing. Retrenchment might be popu which was, the enormous extension of patronage, which lar, but he would never consent, for the sake of any petty the disbursement of so many millions annually would saving, to crush the unfolding energies of this growing throw into the hands of the General Government. He empire, or nip them in the bud. He regretted the genreferred to the effect of patronage in other Govern- eral pressure of which the gentleman from South Carolina ments, and particularly in England, the history of which [Mr. MARTIN] had spoken as much as he could do, but he will show, that what the Stuart could not accomplish by thought the present plan one of the best ways to remove prerogative, had been effected in subsequent reigns by it. As to the neglect of that gentleman's State, he bepatronage. He implored the committee to pause believed she had never asked and been refused. There fore they sanctioned a principle directly at war with the was no intention to debar Virginia, or any of the Southpolicy which rendered the States the supervisors and sentinels over the movements of the General Government. The last ground he took was, that, as a very large portion of the United States were known to dissent from the power of the General Government to ap. ply the public money to objects of this description, it behooved the majority of this House (and he believed there was a small majority) who thought otherwise, to pause and deliberate well before they sanctioned a system of measures on which public sentiment was so greatly divided. He meant to use nothing like a menace. He had not the remotest idea that the People whom he represented would rise in any sort of rebellion, or attempt, in the slightest degree, to disturb the Government. But he thought it the part of wisdom, especially in a Government that paid so much deference to public opinion, to act with the greatest caution, when that opinion was so nearly upon an equipoise.

Mr. BUCHANAN expressed his dissent from the opinions avowed by the two gentlemen who had preceded him. The true question ought to be distinctly stated. The act of 1824 sanctioned the policy, not of immediately entering upon a plan of internal improvement, but of preparing for it, by obtaining surveys, plans, and estimates, in relation to the various roads and canals, that were required throughout the country. The sum of $30,000 had been appropriated, not for a single year, but for a specific purpose, which purpose had not yet been accomplished. Many surveys were

ern States, from their full proportion of these benefits. Of the three important works which had yet been undertaken, they had had at least their proportion. He referted to the Chesapeake and Delaware Canal, the Ohio Canal, and the Dismal Swamp Canal. The last of these was now enjoyed by Virginia; it had not been forced upon her, but she has received it, as he hoped, with grati tude. The interests of the Southern States were precious to the North, because they were identified with their own. As to patronage, he believed the great fountain of it was to be found in this House. He believed the Representatives here were almost always consulted. He could say, for one, that he had obtained for his constituents their full share.

Mr. B. then referred to the employment of the United States' Engineers, in devising the plan for the Baltimore rail road, and passed many commendations on their assi duity and skill.

Mr. HAMILTON rose in support of the amendment. He believed there were more surveys now in the Topographical Bureau than could be carried into effect in half a century, or, to speak within bounds, for twenty-five years. Under the parental patronage of the gentleman from Virginia, (Mr. MERCER] who, he believed, was in favor of every canal and every road in the country, projects had accumulated which could not be completed within that time. There was no need of this appropriation to enable the Secretary of War to employ the Topographical Engineers, but he could tell the gentleman that

this mode of employing them was seriously injurious to the Army, by withdrawing from camp and garrison duty some of its highest talent. Young men of this description were relieved from the ordinary heavier duties of the ser vice, and dispatched through the country on agreeable tours on horseback, and in carriages, &c. He denied that the act of 1824 had any prospect of operation, but was passed on the supposition that, for the 30,000 dollars appropriated, all the plans and surveys could be procured which would be wanted in fifty years. But, instead of that, the appropriation had been continued till work enough had been carved out to occupy half a century, and to cost three millions of dollars.

[FEB. 14, 1828.

they were gradually amassing in the hands of the Government, and considered it a reproach to this country that we were, in this respect, behind almost every other. Mr S. WOOD, of New York, supported the amendment with zeal. He agreed in the views presented by Mr. BARBOUR. When the bill of 1824 was passed, the House was told that it was immediately to be followed by an efficient, practical system; but no such system had ensued. The projects already stated could not be realised in a century. The means which had been thrown away upon these surveys ought to have been applied to a survey of our internal frontier, and of our sea-coast. The latter had been begun, but had been suspended to Mr. MERCER rose in reply. He insisted on the pow-make way for an examination of hills and valleys, and the er of the President, as Commander in Chief of the Army, falls of rivers. He thought this system ought immedito employ the Engineers in whatever service he thought | ately to be arrested, and if the appropriation were to be expedient. To become acquainted with our country continued at all, its objects ought to be changed. The was the first step in preparing for its defence. There survey of canals was work for civil engineers, not for were some canals which belonged chiefly to defence, those of the army. The works in New York had been and if Congress had power to make canals, it certainly carried on by that State by civil engineers, educated and had power to survey the routes for them." He utterly perfected there. Internal improvement was a thing perdenied the correctness of the idea that the Engineers taining to the States. Even they could superintend it were put in a light and pleasurable duty-they encoun- but imperfectly-the General Government not at all. He tered more hardships than any other persons in the had ever been an advocate for these improvements; but he Army, and the distinguished head of the Corps had un- preferred to see them carried on by private associations. dergone more fatigue, since he accepted the present sta-He was against the appropriation. He doubted its constition, than in all his services to that Chief whom he had tutionality; he was convinced of its inexpediency; he followed over the greatest part of Europe. So far from considered it as wasteful and extravagant,and as injuriousthere being already in the Bureau surveys for fifty years, ly diverting the engineers from their own proper duty. and for three millions of dollars, the whole expense Murmurs were already heard in the nation respecting the would not amount to one million, and they could all be application of this fund, and its political tendency was accomplished far within that time. As to the Ohio and such as still more to wean the People from their confiChesapeake Canal, concerning which the public had so dence in their Government. long been astounded with calculations of its expense, all that was asked for it was one million of dollars.

Mr. STEWART regretted the course of the debate. He thought it greatly preferable to keep the engineers with-employed in active duty, than to leave them in camp or garrison. The information they had already accumulated was worth much more than it had cost. These surveys were originally proposed only as preliminary to a great and general system. They had prospective reference to the period now nearly at hand, when large sums would be disposable by the Government, that were at present absorbed by the sinking fund. Even allowing that the completion of these works would take twenty. five years, as had been suggested by the gentleman from South Carolina, (Mr. HAMILTON) ought not the surveys to be previously made, and to be in readiness before the works are commenced? As to the increase of patronage, the officers were already in employ, and must be paid whether they make these surveys or not. If there is to be a surplus in the Treasury, in what manner can it be better employed? Would gentleman spend it on the Army? or on the Navy? And would not the patronage of the General Government be at least as much increased by such an application of it? Mr. S. dwelt upon the value of roads and canals, in a military point of view, and as facilitating the transportation of the mail. All the inducements which are leading the States in every direction to works of this kind, operate with equal force on the General Government, as charged with the welfare of the whole country, as bound to protect, and as not less bound to unite, its various parts, by every wise and practicable means.

Of the objects contemplated, the greater part lay in the Public Lands and Territories of the United States. As to the question of power, he was sorry his colleague had not entered upon the discussion. For himself, he did not hold that the General Government ought ever to construct any Canal by its own authority. It was not competent to the observation of economy, either in the construction, supervision, or repairs of such works. In illustration, Mr. M. referred to the Canal of Languedoc, and to the Cumberland Road. In reply to the argument from public opinion, Mr. M. denied that the settled policy of the country was to be changed with every temporary change of sentiment in particular sections of the country. It was not long since Virginia had held opinions, on the subject of internal improvements, directly the reverse of those now avowed by his colleague. For he had, himself, had the honor of submitting to the Le gislature of that State, propositions founded on the very principle of the possession of such a power by the General Government; and which were adopted by a vote nearly unanimous. What was popular to-day, might be unpopular to-morrow. The Judicial branch of the Government furnished a safe tribunal for the right construction of the Constitution. It has decided in favor of a National Bank, and though Virginia had once opposed that measure with a chivalrous zeal, she had acquiesced in that decision, and since invested part of her funds in its stock.

Mr. M. referred to the minutely accurate maps and surveys which had been made in other countries, particularly in Holland, and concluded with insisting upon the value of such knowledge as an aid to the military defence of the nation.

Mr. WHIPPLE, in reply to Mr. HAMILTON, quoted the law establishing the duties of the Engineer Corps, and insisted that their employment was in perfect conformity with the spirit of that act. He dwelt upon the value of such a treasure of topographical information as

He

Mr. KREMER would not have spoken, but to explain the reason why, after having always voted for this appropriation heretofore, he should now oppose it. had attentively observed the course of these surveys, ever since 1824, and had become convinced that they accomplished no good purpose, and he did not see that they ever would, because the Government did not pos sess the ways and means to carry the projects into execution. In the meanwhile, the Government sent its en. gineers into every part of the country, exciting the

hopes of the People. "Oh yes! you shall have a road,
you shall have a canal! This is the very site for it."
But the Government had no means to fulfil its promises,
and was borrowing money to pay its debts. Gentlemen
need not be alarmed about finding out ways to spend our
surplus funds. Let us once get the surplus, and there
will be no want of projects. If they had more money
than they could spend, let them take some of the burth-
ens off the backs of the People. What would be thought
of a man who employed a great many architects to draw
plans for him, but had no money wherewith to build?
The committee then rose and reported progress.

[H. OF R.

two days past, I stated that a motion would be made on Tuesday next, to go into Committee of the Whole on the tariff bill. I did not state that the motion would be made by me, but that it would, then, be made. This notice was given at the instance of a majority of the mem. bers of the Committee on Manufactures, who thought it proper to have it proposed to the House to have the bill called up by that day, and I used, with intended courtesy, the phrase mentioned in announcing it, so as to leave the opportunity to the Chairman to make the motion, if it should be found in unison with his views and feelings-this being uncertain, as he had on the preceding day submitted a number of propositions to the House, at material variance with the bill reported through him by the Committee on Manufactures, and he not having given notice that the bill would be called Mr. FLOYD, of Va. moved the following resolution: up by him. In a report of the proceedings of yesterday in Resolved, That the committee to whom was referred one of the morning papers, the Chairman of the Comthe rules and orders of this House, be instructed to in-mittee on Manufactures is made to say, "that, as soon quire into the expediency of providing some means of making the Stenographers responsible for the accuracy of their reports.

FRIDAY, FEBRUARY, 15, 1828.

STENOGRAPHERS.

as the business reported from the Committee of Ways and Means should be disposed of, he proposed, in obedience to the instructions given him by the Committee on Mr. FLOYD said, I have submitted that resolution Manufactures, to call up the bill regulating the duties for two reasons. First, that we may ensure a correct re- on imports." I did not then understand him to say port of the proceedings of this House, and the next, to this-nor did he do so, in fact. Yet, it is so reported, correct an error as it regards myself. I am, moreover, and an editorial paragraph is based on this very misinduced to take this course from the many complaints statement. The notice given by me on Tuesday, was, I daily hear among the members, of the inaccuracy of that, authorized by the majority of the members of the these reports. I think the House will agree with me, committee, who thought it proper that the bill should that one of the papers, which purports to publish the be considered early, I shall be happy if the Chairman proceedings of this House, is so notoriously incorrect, will then, or at an earlier period, call it up, and give his that I think I am justified in saying, that many gentle- cordial support to conduct it before the House. If he men here think it proceeds from a studied determina- will make the motion on Tuesday, to go into the Comtion to misrepresent. The other, inattentive to the correct mittee of the Whole, it will give me pleasure; if not, and report of proceedings here, at least as it regards our side. the pending business admits it, the motion will be made The error which I wish to correct, in regard to my- by some other member of the committee. Through the self, is the report of what I am made to say, in a debate erroneous statement of one of the reporters, unpleasant some days ago, upon the resolution introduced by the feelings may be imputed by the public, when none such member from Ohio [Mr. SLOANE ] I have never yet seen exist. I will not believe it possible that this was the reeither of the papers in this place which reported my result of design. The remarks I have made are due to marks. I did not know what their report was. What myself, and to the majority of the members of the comI know about it now, is a quotation from a paper print-mittee at whose instance I acted. In reference to the ed in Norfolk, Virginia, just put into my hands; which quotation I will read to the House: it is as follows:

"At the same time, we do see a General of the United States trying soldiers at Norfolk, and shooting them too, for desertion. I know it to be a fact, for I was an eyewitness. A gentleman near me says that those were not militiamen. I believe two of them were. I derive my information from a source entitled to at least as much credit as if it were drawn from hired and pensioned letter-writers in one of the Departments. But, Sir, if they were not militiamen, they were men, and is not the life of man dear."

Now sir, I said no such thing. What I did say, was this: That during the late war, at Norfolk, three soldiers were tried by a Court Martial, and condemned to be shot for the crime of desertion. My colleague, near me, says they were not militiamen: I did not say they were militiamen. I said three soldiers had been condemned to be shot; two of these soldiers, I was informed, were militiamen, and one a soldier of the United States. The two whom I understood to be militiamen, were pardoned by the Commanding General-the other, who was a United States' soldier, was shot, which I know to be true, as I, myself, was an eye witness to the execution. This much I have deemed necessary, wholly with a view to do justice to myself, and correct this error in the report of the proceedings on that resolution.

Mr. STEVENSON, of Pa. said: whilst this resolution is pending, I take leave to make a remark, which I think due to myself, on the subject of a report of the proceedings of yesterday. It will be recollected that,

resolution, I shall be gratified if some mode can be devised, by which members may have the benefit of the facts. It is all important that we shall be correctly report. ed here. Let the text at least be held sacred-whatever the commentary.

Mr. MALLÁRY rose to make a few remarks, as well in reply to the gentleman who had just taken his seat, as on the resolution before the House. That mortifica tion was often experienced by members, from the manner in which their speeches were reported, was no doubt true. But, that any thing like a design to misrepresent was harbored by any of the gentlemen engaged in reporting, he could not believe. From the character of some of them, he felt fully assured, that they had not intended to injure either himself, or any other member of the House. In reporting the notice, however, which he had yesterday given, in relation to the tariff bill, one of the papers had misrepresented him. The notice which he had given was, that pursuant to the instructions of the committee, he had introduced a bill, together with a report on the subject of duties on imported manufactures, and that, though courtesy to the Committee of Ways and Means, would induce him to wait until the appropriation bills reported by that committee should be gotten through with, he should, as soon as it was over, call up the bill for an increase of duties on imports. He had not said that he gave this notice in consequence of any instructions from the committee, because such was not the fact. But, he had given the notice in discharge of a duty inciden tal to him as chairman of the committee, and without any