would

He did not say he was strongly in favour of State-aided schools, but he recognised there might be occasions when it w be for the general convenience and advantage that there should be State-aided schools, and he proposed to provide for those occasions in what he ventured to think was a carefully balanced and considered Amendment. He had put in every safeguard he could think of, but if the noble Earl had further qualifications he would like to introduce at a subsequent stage of the Bill he would be glad to consider them. He thought the noble Earl would recognise that this Amendment was not framed in any controversial spirit.

Amendment to the new clause moved"To insert at the beginning the following words if the Commission think fit after consulting the Board of Education, they may, in the case of any existing or transferred voluntary school which fulfils the conditions requisite before extended facilities can be granted under this Act, make an order continuing such school as a State-aided school-(a) if the applicants for the facilities desire that instead of the facilities being granted such an order should be made; or (b) if the parents' committee complain of the mode in which extended facilities are afforded by the local education authority, and desire that, in lieu of any other remedy, such an order should be made; provided that in no case shall such an order be made unless the owners of the schoolhouse consent, and the Commission are satisfied that the estimated income of the school

from endowments, fees, and voluntary contribu

tions will secure a standard of maintenance not inferior to that of the other public elementary schools in the area. The order may provide so far as necessary for the cancelling of any

arrangement or order made with respect to the transfer or use of the schoolhouse, and for any other matter for which provision is required in connection with the order of the Commission under this section."-(Lord Ashbourne.)

that the Commissioners would in every or practicable, because he should think case refuse to turn the school into a State-aided school without knowing that some kind of communication had taken place between the authority and the

owners of the school with a view to arriving at an agreement. That was an important difference, and it was certainly would be disposed to look kindly. Subnot one upon which the Government section (b) of the noble and learned Lord's Amendment seemed to contemplate that the Commission was going to be everlasting. The Commission would probably be dissolved long before the parents' committees in many cases had an opportunity of making their complaint. He hoped they would not have to make complaints at all, but if they did it would be some years after the Commission had done its labour; and therefore he did not understand how they proposed to make an appeal to them on the subject.

LORD ASHBOURNE said that matter could be met at a later stage.

Amendment moved

On question, Amendment agreed to.

THE EARL OF CREWE moved a new sub-section to enable the Commission to appoint such officers as they thought necessary for the purpose of assisting in the execution of their duties under this Act. The Amendment, he explained, was also in order that the Commission might carry out their work in an efficient manner. The words had been carefully chosen in order to meet the point upon which a contention was made by the Marquess of Salisbury when the House was last discussing this matter, that he would view with suspicion any handing over of powers to a sub-commissioner. He thought the Amendment guarded against that, though he thought it was a great convenience to be able to depute someone to inquire on their behalf.

"In page 10, line 40, after the word 'law' to insert as a separate sub-section :-(6) The Com. mission may appoint or employ such number of officers and persons as they think necessary for the purpose of assisting in the execution of their duties under this Act, and may remove any officer or person so appointed or employed, and, for the purpose of obtaining any informa tion which the Commission may require, may direct any commissioner or any such officer or person to hold an inquiry. But nothing in this Act shall authorise the Commission to delegate the decision of any point which it is their duty to decide under this Act, or the making of a scheme or order under this Act.'" -The Earl of Crewe.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Amendments moved

"In page 11, lines 2 and 3, to leave out '31st day of December, 1908,' and insert'the 1st of July, 1909.'

schools were to be purely denominational, and therefore seemed to be in the same category as Clause 4 schools, and he hoped the noble Earl would see no objection to the Amendment. Under the Bill as it stood, there would be no managers to these schools, and therefore it was important that there should be a parents' committee to be responsible for the religious instruction. The second paragraph of the Amendment simply referred questions between the local education authority and the parents' committee to the Board of Education.

Amendment moved

"In page 11, line 34, after the word' effect,' to insert the following new sub-sections:(4) In all schools used by the local education authority under this section, and in all Stateaided schools, there shall be a parents' committee elected and nominated as provided in Section 4 of this Act, and all the provisions hereinbefore contained with reference to the parents' committee shall apply to the parents' committee in those schools. (5) If any question arises between the local education authority and the parents' committee of any school as to the proper and adequate fulfilment of their duties by the committee, such question shall be referred to the Board of Education, whose decision shall be final, and shall be complied with by the local education authority and the parents' committee. (6) The powers of managers under Section 76 of the Elementary Education Act, 1870, snall, after the passing of this Act, be exercised by the parents' committees appointed under this Act.""-(Viscount Llandaff.)

THE EARL OF CREWE said as regarded Clause 11 schools the Government had no objection whatever to the appointment of a parents' committee to manage the religious education while the schools were in a state of suspense, but they did not wish to see parents' committees in State-aided schools, because, as

6

would contain special arrangements for the management of those schools which would obviously be of a denominational character, and it would therefore be a pity to appoint a parents' committee merely to deal with religious education. in those schools, because, as a matter of fact, their general management would necessarily be of a more or less denominational kind. As regarded the second point, they were not at all willing for the Board of Education to undertake to settle disputes between the parents' committee and the local education authority. It would be throwing an entirely new

LORD BARNARD pointed out that the Board of Education might make an order, and the Commission under the Act might also make an order, and the two orders might be inconsistent.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY said the noble Earl would surely not press this Amendment unless he had a conclusive answer to the noble Lord's contention. It seemed to stand to reason that there should not be two Commissions sitting upon one authority at the same time.

THE EARL OF CREWE said the fear was that the appointment of the Commission might be held to destroy the powers of the Charity Commissioners or the Board of Education in certain cases in which the Commission would not act; but it was not, he thought, a vital Amendment, and if noble Lords took a very strong objection to it he would withdraw it, at any rate at this stage.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

THE EARL OF CREWE moved the

addition of the following sub-section in Clause 14:-"(4) The power of the Commission to make an order or scheme with respect to a schoolhouse and the power of the local education authority to use a schoolhouse temporarily under this Act shall not, where that power arises under provisions of this Act which are confined in their application to schoolhouses held under charitable trusts, be exercised in such a manner as to bind or restrict any interest in the schoolhouse which is not subject to those trusts without the consent of the persons in whom that interest is vested." He said the point was raised during the course of the debates when they were discussing Clauses 9 and 11. It was feared that as the Commission under Clause 9 and the local authority under Clause 11 were given power to deal with charitable trusts, it must be made quite clear that the power only extended to those interests which were subject to trusts, and not to all the other interests of the schoolhouse.

Amendment moved

“In page 12, line 34, to insert the following new sub-section (4) The power of the Commission to make an order or scheme with respect to a schoolhouse and the

are

power of the local education authority to
use a schoolhouse temporarily under this
under provisions of this Act which
Act shall not, where that power arises
contined in their application to schoolhouses
held under charitable trusts, be exercised in
such a manner as to bind or restrict any in-
terest in the schoolhouse which is not subject
to those trusts without the consent of the
persons in whom that interest is vested.”—
(The Earl of Crewe).

On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Drafting Amendment agreed to.

THE EARL OF CREWE moved to leave out the words "of voluntary schools," in lines 10 and 11 and insert for the purpose of a public elementary school." The Amendment was really one of a verbal kind. It had been suggested that if this Bill passed there would be no such thing as voluntary schools, and therefore the words "voluntary schools" would have no definite meaning, and that consequently some doubt might be raised as to whether it was not confined to existing voluntary schools.

LORD CLIFFORD OF CHUDLEIGH : Would not a "certified efficient school" be a voluntary school?

THE EARL OF CREWE: It might be, but I do not quite see the purpose of the noble Lord's Question.

Amendment moved—

LORD BELPER moved an Amendment providing that in any case where the powers and duties conferred on a local education committee entailed the expenditure of money, such committee should be so constituted as to ensure that not less than two-thirds of the whole body should be representative members, who might be either elected for the purpose by the local government or parochial electors of the delegation area, or members of the district or parish councils within the delegation area, or members of the county which lay wholly or partly within the council representing any electoral division delegation area. He said the Amendment was of some importance as dealing

with the administrative part of the Bill, and perhaps he might be allowed to remind the House of the position in which the delegation clause stood when they were in Committee. There was considerable discussion on the bearing of the clause, and although some slight concession was made by the Government, he subsequently, though unable to accept that, offered to make it clear that in cases where the delegation authority had the power of spending money a majority of them should be directly representative of the ratepayers. After that there was a division taken, which, without stretching the point too far, showed, at all events, that the great majority of the House were of opinion that some further concession should be made to the views of the county council than had been made by the Government. Since the Committee stage he had had an opportunity of learning the views of a good many Members of the House who were interested in county council work, and in whose judgment he had great confidence. He had also had the opportunity of consulting his friends who represented the County Councils' Association, and who, equally with him, were responsible for the Amendment. He thought those who agreed with him felt that if the powers were going to be given to a local education committee of spending money, and, if necessary, spending more money that the sum spent for the same purpose by the county council, they could not contest the point that the ratepayers ought to be represented by a majority on that committee. In fact, so far as he could see, the only security against extravagance would be that the rate. payers should be able to call that committee to account, and the only excuse for spending a larger sum of money than had hitherto been spent for the same sort of purpose was that the district wished that amount to be spent, and that they would support the committee which represented them in the spending of that money. Under those circumstances they thought it desirable that he should put on the Paper an Amendment which would carry out their views, and he ventured to submit that this Amendment carried out in a full and fair manner the principle that where they gave powers to a local education committee to spend money the committee should, by way

Lord Belper.

re

of security against extravagance, be representative of the ratepayers. In the Amendment he had adopted the principle that such committee should be so constituted as to ensure that no less than two-thirds of the whole body were representative members. He adopted two-thirds because obviously that was a considerable majority, and if he membered rightly, the noble Lord the President of the Council himself suggested two-thirds instead of three-fourths as regarded this clause. The Amendment also adopted the representation very much in the words which were used in the former clause; that was to say, there might be a body elected for the purpose by the local government or parochial electors of the delegation area, or the representative body might consist of the district or parish councillors, and they had added to that that it might also consist of members of the county council representing any electoral division lying wholly or partly within the delegation area. A much larger interest with regard to local government was taken in the election of county councillors than in the case of parish councillors, and as the county council had had the responsibility of dealing with the education question it seemed rather invidious that they should be left out, and not called in this clause representative members. As the clause was drawn it gave considerably more latitude to the county council in drawing up their scheme, because as long as they secured the principle of the twothirds representation they had the choice of the members being elected in whatever way they liked. He was fully aware that this was a concession, and he thought a real concession towards the view of the Government. He knew there were many Members of the House who took a very great interest in this question, and he was very anxious in view of the responsibility that rested upon him in being their spokesman in this matter that the subject should not leave the House without some expression of their views as to the limit to which they could give way with regard to the appointment of these committees. He knew there were some Members who would have preferred that the matter should be left entirely optional, and that no obligation should be put upon them, but, as that matter had been decided and this delegation scheme had been arranged for, he