1680. Apro.32 Car.II. to go on with the Bill of Banifhment, which is moft likely to do you fome Service. At least, by it we shall fee, whether any thing will be granted againft Papifts, or no: For this Purpose it will be neceffary, that the Houfe be moved, that the Knights, Citizens, and Burgefles be commanded to bring in a Lift of all the moft confiderable Papists in England, in order to banish the most notorious. I. B. perhaps Sir, I retain a good Opinion of an Affociation-Bill, notwithstanding what hath been faid, as to the Weakness it may receive from our unhappy Divifions in Points of Religion and Intereft, too much promoted by fome of our Clergy. For, Sir, when I confider how the Laudean Principles, as to raifing of Money without Parliaments in the late Times, infected most of our Clergy, fo as that they not only preached up the King's abfolute Authority over Men's Properties, but branded with the Title of Rebels, and condemned to hell those that offered to argue against it: I do conclude, that it is ufual for one or two Bishops to give Measures or Directions to the rest of the Bishops, and they to the Clergy of their fe veral Dioceffes: And that therefore the Clergy derive their Politics generally from one or two Bishops in fome great Station. Yet, Sir, when I remember how, after fome little Time, many of the Clergy fell off, and would not follow fuch Inftructions; and how the People foon excufed themselves from following their Advice in fuch Politics, and would not freely pay illegal Taxes, notwithstanding all their Endeavours; I am apt to think, Sir, that as the People were not long then mifled, so as to fubmit to lose their Property, fo they will not now to any Thing that fhall tend to the lofing of their Religion and Property both. They will foon difcover what is their Intereft, and how true Intereft will not lye. I have often told you within thefe Walls, they will foon apprehend that Popery will bring in Slavery, and reduce them not only to an idolatrous, fuperftitious Religion, but to wear wooden Shoes like the French, and to eat Herbs like the Spaniard, because they will foon know that they fhall not be long Mafters of any Thing they have: And however they may perfuaded for a while, I am confident they will at last confult how to fave their Bacon. They will difcern that the Clergy may be good Divines, but not fo good Politicians; and that there may be fome Difference in point of Intereft between them and the Clergy, becaufe Clergymen may be in a Poffibility of being adavnced by Popery if they fubmit; but the Laity under a Probability of lofing all, notwithstanding all fubmilions. Sir, I do not trouble you with this Difcourfe out of a Fear that our Clergy will not fhew themfelves good Pro teftants; for I have that Veneration for them, and Opinion of liem as to believe that many of the Bishops and Clergy too be would 1680. would as foon die for the Proteftant Religion as many Perfons Anno 32 Car.It. in the Nation. But I am jealous that there is fome over-awing Power got in amongst them, fomething anfwerable to that of a Popish Succeffor in the State; by whofe Means thofe Bills were so easily pafs'd in the late long Parliament, under a Pretence that they were for the Prefervation of the Proteftant Religion, which the Commons then found, and any Perfon that will now perufe them may find, would infallibly have brought in Popery: And how, fince the Plot, the Danger of Fanatics is cried up more than that of the Papists; and how tender they are in the Point of a Popifh Succeffor, or joining in any thing that is against him. But though thefe Things make me jealous there is fome body that misleads them now in Matters relating to Popery, as formerly in Things relating to Property; yet I am of Opinion that they will ere long fee, that to ftand up for the Intereft of a Popish Succeffor, to have a Popifh King, to weaken the Proteftant Intereft, and speak ill of Parliaments, is not the right Way to preferve the Proteftant Religion; but a plain Contradiction, and an Invention of Jefuits. And therefore, Sir, I am for going on with the Affociation-Bill; for I will never doubt that the true Intereft of the Nation, in fo great a Concern as this, will long be baffled by fuch Projectors. And therefore it is my Defire that the Houfe may be moved to appoint a Committee to draw up a Bill for that Purpose." Sir, I think you have been well moved, as well for the Sir William Affociation-Bill as the Banishing-Bill. By the one, you will Hickman., fend your Enemies out of the Country; by the other be in a good Condition to keep them out, which may go a great way to fecure us.' Sir F. R. Sir J. H. and Mr. L. G. for the Banishing-Bill. Sir, I am not against any of these Bills, because they may Sir Nich. be all convenient for the prefent Occafion; but if any Man Carew. think that these Bills will do without the Succeffion Bill, I believe they will find themselves mistaken: For these Bills will fignify nothing, unless you can remove your Popish Succeffor, and your Popish Intereft. These Bills will not reach your Papifts in Mafquerade, who will certainly continue as long as there is a Popish Succeffor, and make your BanishingBill, and Affociation Bill too, as ineffectual as white Paper. Let fuch as I could name to you have the Command of the Sea-Ports, (as I fuppofe they will without my naming them) and in the Lieutenancy, and Commiffion of the Peace, and when the prefent Heat is over, let the Papifts come back when they will, they will have no Caufe to doubt having a kind Reception. For you must not expect to have plain ruftic Country Gentlemen, in fuch Commands, but well bred Courtiers, and fome good, cafy, credulous Gentlemen that will D 2 foon 1 1680. Anno 32Car.II. be perfuaded there is no Danger in Popery; and then of what ufe will your banishing or Affociation-Bill be? As long_as the Duke hath fo many Friends at Court, (between whofe Intereft and Popery I cannot hear there is any Diftinction) I think no Laws that we can make against Popery will do us any Good, because all the Laws we have already have done us none. For the fame Arts and Power that have hitherto defeated all your other Laws, will alfo defeat what you are. now about. And therefore, Sir, I am of opinion we are not now acting like the true Phyficians of the Nation, but like Mountebanks. For the moft we fhall be able to do this Way, is to patch and plaifter up our Sores, and have them hereafter break out incurable upon us. But if you are refolto go on with thefe Bills that have been propofed, I will not offer to oppofe the Senfe of the Committee, but would move you, (that we may not forget, or lofe in the Croud, that which at laft, I believe, muft be purfued, if ever you will do any Thing for your Religion) that in the first place you pass a Vote, That it is the Opinion of this Committee, that as long as the Papifts have any Hopes of the Duke of York's fucceeding the King, the King's Perfon, the Proteftant Religion, and the Lives and Liberties of the People, are in apparent Danger.' Bilas Titus, ved Sir, I have read that a great Minifter of State of Spain, gave this fhort Advice to a Friend of his that was coming Ambaffador into England; that he should not always aim at the beft. I think it may be convenient for us to follow that Advice; for if we fhould not have fomething for our Security, before we get the beft, I am afraid it may happen to us, as it did to a Man whofe Houfe was befet with Thieves; he was fo long arming his Servants, and appointing them their diftinct Quarters, that the Thieves broke in, and caught them all unprovided. I pray God it may not be our Cafe; though I am very fenfible that none of thefe Bills can effectually do our Bufinefs; for nothing can fecure us againft this Party, but being free of their Principles as well as of their Perfons; which I conclude will always remain in fome Perfons amongst us, notwithstanding your banishing of Papifts, as long as there is a Popifh Succeffor. For I remember what a great Man of Swedeland told me, that all Laws they could make had never any effect against them, until they not only banished them out of their Country, but fecured the Government in the Hand of Princes of their own Religion; and I am afraid, that nothing less than the fame Way will ever do our Bufine!s here. For it is not fo much the Number of Papifts, as their Principles, and the Danger of their getting the Government into their Hands, which we know they have been long aiming at, that may justly be feared, in which I am perfuaded they 1680. will be fo reflefs, as that we fhall never be fecure against Anno 32 Car.II. them, unless we can banish their Principles from Court, as well as the People out of the Country. Sir, what my good Friend that spoke laft hath faid, that Sir Francis we should get fomething, and not lofe all, by aiming fo Winnington. earneftly at the beft, is very well, if we were like to get any thing inftead of it, that fhall have the Appearance of being, ferviceable in this cafe: But I have feen old Parliamentmen mistaken fometimes, and I am afraid that he will fooner fee this Parliament diffolved, than any thing granted that fhall be material againft Popery. And that the mentioning of thefe Bills fhall afterwards arife in Judgment against you; however, I think we must adventure. What this Affociation-Bill may be, I cannot tell, until it be drawn; but I fee no Oppofition made to any of thofe Bills that have been propofed; and I believe there is much Business yet behind for this Day, and that you will do well to husband your time, and put this Bufinefs out of your Hands, by putting the Queftions." Sir, you have been very well moved for the bringing Sir Richard in of fuch Bills as may tend as much to the Security of the Temple. Proteftant Religion, as any that can be offered. That of Banishment will certainly go a great way to deftroy, not only their Power, but their Intereft and Principles too, and be a great difheartening to their Party abroad. That Intereft will not then have fo many Engines to work with here, as now they have. And the Bill of Affociation will be neceffary, that we may have a Law to defend ourselves. The Affociation made in Queen Elizabeth's Time, will be a good Precedent to draw it up by. And feeing there is no Oppofition, I move you to put the Question." Refolved, That it is the Opinion of this Committee, that one Means to fupprefs Popery is, that the House be moved that a Bill be brought in immediately, to banish all the confiderable Papifts out of the Kingdom. Sir, by offering at the Exclufion-Bill, we may conclude Ralph Montagu. we have offended the Duke of York; by this Bill for Banishment, all the reft of the confiderable Papifts in England. As we have made many Enemies, fo it will be convenient, that we should endeavour to get fome Law to defend ourselves against their implacable Defigns. For which a Bill for an Affociation of all his Majefty's Proteftant Subjects may do well; and therefore I pray that we may move the Houfe to have it brought in.' Sir, as we are fick of complicated Diseases, though all W. G. have their Original from one Caufe, feeing we cannot be permitted to cure that Caufe, we must think of many Remedies to cure the many Evils that fprout from it. The Banish 1680. Anno 32Car.II. Banishing of the Papifts alone will not do it: And I am not willing to pafs any Judgment on the Affociation-Bill before I fee it. But, Sir, what Fruit can you expect from your Laws, unlefs you can fecure good Judges in Weftminfter hall, and good Men in Commiffion in all other Places? Is there at this time a Judge, a Deputy-Lieutenant, or a Juftice of Peace in Commiffion, that you can expect fhall act against the Duke of York? Or if any fuch be in, are they for more than a Colour? Are they not over-powered - by fuch as are for the Duke's Intereft? If this do not make all your Laws invalid, by not executing them; is there not an Army of about ten thoufand Men under the Name of Guards? and may not more be raised? And what then will your Laws fignify? Have we not already had fome Experience of this, when the Toleration came out in 1672. when there was that Army at Black-Heath, and Clifford had the Management of the great Affairs of State? If the King had not then hearkened to the Advice of his Parliament, what would all the Laws that were then in force against Papifts have fignified? And may you not fee the fame again, if you do not take fome care to prevent it? What great Difference between Clifford and fome of our present great Minifters, only that he had that Weakness to declare himfelf to be a Papift, and these the Difcretion to keep the Knowledge of their Religion to themfelves. But we fee they manage things as much in favour of Popery, as ever Clifford did. Did not that Toleration, that Army, and that Minister of State, repeal all your Laws as effectually, as if they had never been made? When I confider how the Triple-League was broke, after we had made Laws for the keeping it, by giving near three Millions; how the Peace was made up at Nimeguen, after we had made an Act for an actual War with France, and given above a Million for entring into it; I will never believe that any Law will be obferved, make what you will, unless there be those about the King that may be for the keeping of it; otherwise you fhall have fuch Judges, Juftices, Deputy-Lieutenants, and other commiffioned Officers, as will repeal your Laws at pleasure. And therefore I could wish you would confider well, how you poffefs thofe that fent you here, with an Opinion that they may depend upon fuch Laws as these. And at the fame time, Sir, that you are confulting the Deftruction of the Papifts, I think you may do well to endeavour the Prefervation of the Proteftants. Is this a Time for the Church-men and Diffenters to quarrel? It is like two Men riding upon a Road, a Highway-man coming to rob them, inftead of uniting to defend themfelves, they quarrel and difarm one the other, and fo were both robbed. I pray |