Doctor COOLEY. You are doing a lot with them as it is. If my son, or yours, wants to go over to the University of Wisconsin to take a medical course, all you or I have to do is just pay his board, and the State of Wisconsin will spend $700, $800, or $900 a year for his tuition, but this fellow down here who is working for Smith & Jones and has come right along and made progress, is married, has his little family, and if he can get his next step he can get his promotion. Permit me to say that in this school here we have a group of 250 men in just the position that I described. They are men now holding fairly good positions in the industries of the city of Milwaukee. They feel that if they do not have a chance to study, the university-trained fellow is going to come in and take their next promotion, because he will come in on that level. We have set up for those people a 6-year evening course. They are coming in and studying to-day right on the job where they are working to-morrow. They are completing their work, and they are getting their promotions, and they are sending their children to high school.

Mr. DOUGLASS. That does not quite answer my question. I do not want to extend the principle of Federal aid too far. Where there is presented to this committee a special case, I have always been willing to listen and consider it, but when you ask me to vote for the extension of this principle to commercial pursuits, and I know there are thousands and thousands of dollars spent by the State and by private institutions along that line, I hesitate.

Doctor COOLEY. I wish I had figures and charts to present, showing the distribution of workers in agricultural, manufacturing, commercial, domestic, mining, and other occupations to the distribution of population. These things have to be proportional to the distribution of population, and this population over here [indicating] can not be denied participation in agriculture; they can not be denied participation in the training necessary for manufacturing, nor for the commercial pursuits.

Mr. MILLER. Such figures will be supplied.

Mr. DOUGLASS. Of course you are speaking for an industrial district now, are you not? And you want the benefits of this act for your own people who are destined for an industrial life. That is your argument to-day, is it not?

Doctor COOLEY. Coming from there, of course, and representing this industrial group

Mr. DOUGLASS. I am not objecting to your position at all, you understand.

Doctor COOLEY. I understand that, but my observation of this is that of course you will have far less of the expenditure of money in commercial lines among the farming districts. I do not know that

the farmer needs more than to learn how to keep books, and very elementary books, at that.

Mr. DOUGLASS. That is elementary education that can be obtained in the grammar schools and the high schools.

Doctor COOLEY. I am not talking about taking care of them, Mr. Douglass. I am talking about the man after he has left school to go into industry.

Mr. DOUGLASS. I learned bookkeeping in the common schools, and never had to use it except in a small business way. I think, off-hand, until the contrary is shown by evidence, enough State money is being expended for study of commercial pursuits, and the assistance of the Federal Government along that line is not needed.

Mr. SCHAFER. Doctor Cooley, is it not a fact that while a great deal of money is expended in other institutions for commercial pursuits, without the extension of this program to vocational training, thousands of our boys and girls who have not the funds to attend those regular schools can have employment part time and learn a commercial

vocation.

Doctor COOLEY. Exactly.

The CHAIRMAN. Let me call the attention of the Committee to the fact that we have quite a long program to go through here with some 14 or 15 witnesses. It is not the desire of the Chair to limit the opportunity of anyone to bring out points that should be developed, but I think in order to give everyone an opportunity to be heard we must find some way to allot the time between the witnesses.

Mr. KVALE. I would like Doctor Cooley to put in the record as part of his remarks, if it is not too much work, and does not involve too much research, the basis for the figures and statistics he has given the committee to show a $500 additional earning power annually per student who graduated from his vocational school. Show, for instance, the number of cases you followed up-in other words, Doctor, the source of material for that figure.

The CHAIRMAN. Also we would like the chart to which he referred a little while ago, showing the different groups, industrial, commercial, and so forth.

Doctor COOLEY. Yes; I will have that.

Mr. MILLER. The question was raised just a few moments ago as to the need for additional training of stenographers and bookkeepers. Vocational educators all over the country have been besieged with requests to put the training of commercial workers, especially outside those two fields, on a vocational basis; and that is the thing we are asking for. That is the use to which that money will be put.

Mr. DOUGLASS. Of course that is not set out in the bill.

Mr. MILLER. Perhaps that is not mentioned in the bill, but that is the thing back of the bill.

Mr. SCHAFER. Is there any good reason why children who have not the means to attend high school and receive education in the field of stenography should not be afforded the opportunity while gainfully employed to complete that education, or the man with a little business can go to night school and learn bookkeeping, and a like opportunity for training citizens who wish to take up other lines of endeavor, yet who can not afford to pay for the instruction?

Mr. DOUGLASS. That is just what I say, if we are going to extend Federal aid to commercial pursuits, where are we going to stop?

The CHAIRMAN. Section 3 of this bill, subdivision A, provides:

Not less than one-fifth nor more than one-third of the sum annually allotted to any State or Territory shall be expended for the training of persons who have entered upon or who are preparing to enter upon employment in specific commercial pursuits, such training to be given in part-time or evening schools or classes, or in full-time schools or classes, for persons 16 years of age or over.

That is where you enter into the commercial field, is it not?
Mr. MILLER. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Who is your next witness?

Mr. MILLER. The next gentleman I should like to have address the committee is Mr. H. W. Caldwell, a business man and member of the board of education, Lagrange, Ga.

The CHAIRMAN. Unless the committee orders otherwise, I am going to try to hold everybody down to 15 or 20 minutes.

Mr. CALDWELL. I will not want that much time, Mr. Chairman. You can give a portion of my time to some one else.

STATEMENT OF H. W. CALDWELL, MEMBER BOARD OF EDUCATION, LAGRANGE, GA.

Mr. CALDWELL. Before I start I want to say one thing to you, and that is that I live in a community of 20,000 people, where we have over 500 people in this section [referring to Doctor Cooley's chart] and where we have never been able to get out of this section [indicating] 100.

The CHAIRMAN. What do you mean by that statement?

Mr. CALDWELL. We never have had a graduating class of a hundred. You have just heard from a large city. You are now hearing from a small one. Doctor Cooley's principle holds true no matter what the size of the community. We have over 500 in this class [indicating] and never have had a hundred in this class [indicating].

Gentlemen, this is the most distinguished class in vocational education I have ever been permitted to address you gentlemen assembled here. As I view it, that is exactly what you are engaged in this morning making a study of how to perform future duties that you may do it better-not only that you may do it, but you have been delegated by the Congress to bring back all the information you can obtain in order that they may vote the right way. I notice from a little guide book I have that Congress has 47 of those classes.

If Congress through its committees spends hours and hours in order to find out how to do its work better, it stands to reason that we people down in the States should be given an opportunity too, that we might study and do our jobs better.

If I were a member of your committee, I would ask two questions. The first one I would ask, seeing that Federal aid is already furnished for some educational purposes, would be "What are you doing with it; what results have been obtained?"

If those answers were satisfactory, and being asked for more assistance, as is the case now, I would ask, "What are you going to do with what we give you?" I can not answer for every unit, but I can answer for Lagrange, Ga., and if we are doing well it stands to reason that the Georgia Vocational Board is doing its job well in Georgia. The only school that we have that this bill particularly affects is a little school we call the Opportunity School. It started some three years

ago. In those three years we have had 274 people enroll, and by the first of this coming June 90 will have received graduating certificates. We have 78 who now have them, and dozen more who will finish. We have a record of 57 of those people, and know what they are doing. Mr. PATTERSON. How many did you say would graduate, Mr. Caldwell?

Mr. CALDWELL. We have 78 who have graduated so far, and a dozen more who will graduate June 1. I have a list of them in my pocket.

Mr. PATTERSON. That would be a good thing to have in the record. Mr. CALDWELL. We know where they are, and what they are doing. We do not take anybody under 14 years of age; we do not allow anybody who is attending any other school. We do not allow high-school students to come into this school. They can not leave high school and come over there in the afternoon. The people in this school are working people between 14 and 50, who get time off to attend school.

Mr. PATTERSON. Who have had no high-school education? Mr. CALDWELL. Some have. We have had two or three college folks, but they did not know certain things that we teach. You know college education does not cover things they have been talking about here. To get down to the meat of the coconut, as it were, these people come from the 10-cent stores, telephone exchanges, or other places of employment where I think the average pay is around $10 a week. On the farm it was less. If any of you know what Georgia farming is, you will know what I mean. I think the average pay of those who came was around $10. To be liberal, I will say it was $15. They increased their earnings from $15 to $25 per week. Mr. PATTERSON. I live within 25 miles of you, so I know what you are talking about. Go right along.

Mr. CALDWELL. We will put the average at $20; we will split with the high and the low. There are 52 weeks in a year. We will cut that to 50, giving them two weeks for vacation; and if ten times $50 does not make $500, I do not know what it does make. There are 75 of them. Seventy-five times $500 is $37,500 a year, and I believe that that amount of additional earning will help solve some of the over-production, under-consumption, and economic problems that trouble the country.

There are 175 undergraduates. Some of them came to study this, that, or the other particular thing in order that they might go on with some little phase of the business they are interested or working in. In other words, our school has been run on such a plan that the pupils can attend at whatever hour suits them best, as classes are assigned at all hours of the day. We had 15 enter a class six weeks ago in this period of unemployemnt, and a check-up Thursday, a week ago to-day, showed 13 of them employed. Why? Because there was a class of people who wanted to come to school instead of being sent. The former speaker mentioned a class of people who should be sent to school. I am talking about people who want to go to school. Show me a people who want to go to school, and I will show you a people who are going to learn and be benefited by it.

Mr. DOUGLASS. I agree with you.

Mr. CALDWELL. I do not know what the increased earnings of that 175 are, I do not know if they are going to complete the course.

But whatever their increased earnings are, they just strengthen that $37,500.

What has been the cost, gentlemen? That school has been run three years at a cost of $7,500, in round figures, half of which came locally, the other half from the Georgia State Board for Vocational Education. The Georgia State board gets its money from the State of Georgia. I think the State board gave about $2,000 from the Federal money for the three years' operation.

Somebody has asked whether it was right for the Federal Government to do that. I will just leave you to draw your own conclusions about that.

These graduates I have spoken of are a result of two years' operation of the school. It took about a year to get organized and started. One of our graduates is employed in Macy's, in New York. There is 1 in the Standard Oil Co. of California; there is 1 in San Antonio, Tex.; there is one in Mississippi; there is one in West Virginia; there are 4 or 5 in Alabama, because we are right next to Alabama; there are 10 in other cities in Georgia.

The CHAIRMAN. Would you mind leaving that for the record? Mr. CALDWELL. I will be glad to. So, this is one reason why I really believe that this country is obtaining results all the time. It is getting a lot smaller than it was when I was a boy.

Mr. DOUGLASS. What do you mean by that?

Mr. CALDWELL. I mean that I could eat breakfast in Lagrange and eat dinner that night in Washington. I was 18 years old before I ever rode on a train.

Mr. DOUGLASS. You mean our modern means of travel are shortening the time in which distances can be covered?

Mr. CALDWELL. Yes; and the country is going to get smaller and smaller as time goes by. There is no economic boundary line between the States as the last speaker stated.

We also receive aid for home economics in our high school at Lagrange. The result of the Federal aid we have thus far received has been to stimulate us to do better. We would not have done it if the ball had not started rolling down the hill toward us. This thing will be a great incentive. All you will have to do to become convinced of the merits of Federal aid is to go down there and see how it works, and you will have absorbed the spirit to such an extent that the only thing you will want to find out is how much more money do you need; you will become convinced that this is one of the finest undertakings of our Government.

Mr. DOUGLASS. Is this home economics that you spoke of an association?

Mr. CALDWELL. Home economics is teaching the girls how to fry a piece of fat back.

Mr. DOUGLASs. I thought you referred to an association of some kind.

Mr. CALDWELL. No, sir. I have not the time to go into details, but, as you know, we have quite an industrial section at Lagrange, stores, and one thing and another. We have around 6,000 people who come out to work in the morning and go back in the evening, and we need such a thing as this so badly. We have plenty of money down there to do it with, but you ask me why we do not do it. I was talking with one of our captains of industry the other day, about