Mr. Burke.

Sir Grey

Cooper.

racies, or even clerical errors, to which so very complicated and extended a fubject must neceffarily be liable. He fhould content himself for the prefent with barely moving a general preliminary refolution, by which the Committee (if they were of his opinion) would go no farther than the adoption of the main principle, and the difcuffion of the more minute queftions which muft arife upon it, would be left open to their future judgement; and as many of those questions would require a very ample confideration, he fhould not wish to proceed farther in the Committee until the enfuing Thursday, that gentlemen might turn their attention to fuch parts of the printed lift of articles, which were to form the fubjects of fuch fubfequent refolutions, as they were beft qualified to judge of. He concluded by moving a refolution to the following purport:-"That all duties of cuftoms, excife, and "certain duties of flamps, do ceafe and determine, and that "other duties be fubftituted in their ftead."-In the motion were included certain fpecific exceptions, as the duties on mält, mum, cyder, perry, &c.

Mr. Burke faid, that upon the whole, the measure propofed, was, in itfelf fo obviously neceffary, beneficial, and defirable, and the right honourable gentleman had opened it with fuch extraordinary clearness and perfpicuity, that he thought it did not become him, or those who like him, unfortunately felt it to be their duty frequently to oppofe the merfures of government, and to content themselves with a fullen acquiefcence, but it behoved them to rife up manfully, and doing juftice to the right honourable gentleman's merit, to return thanks on behalf of themfelves and the country, for having in fo mafterly and intelligible a manner brought forth a plan of confolidation of duties which promised eafe and accommodation to the merchants, and all thofe concerned in the trade and commerce of the country, and advantage and increase of the

revenue.

Sir Grey Cooper declared, that he had not the leaft objection to the fcheme and plan for confolidating the duties and cuf-. toms, for fimplifying the collection of that revenue, for the eafe and difpatch of the merchant, and the advantage of the public. He added that this fcheme had made fome confiderable progrefs, during the time in which a noble lord had prefided in the Treasury; that in the year 1780 and 1781 he had, by order of the noble Lord, often seen, and indeed carried on, a correfpondence on this fubject matter, with a very able and intelligent Commiffioner of the cuftoms, who now, very much to his own honour, and to the advantage of the public, ferved his country in another important office. The noble Lord had it much at heart to bring this plan to the maturity and completion at which it had now arrived; and the right honour

able

able gentleman had ftated and explained the whole propofition, and all its parts, with fo much knowledge and perfpicuity, and thrown a matter of great difficulty and complexity into fo clear an arrangement and perfpective, that, as far as he at prefent understood it, the plan commanded his entire approbation, if that was of any value. He had always conceived, that the chief difficulty in carrying this plan into execution, was the neceffity of changing and altering the appropriation of the duties fpecifically deftined by acts of parliament, for the fecurity of the creditors of the ftate at different periods, particularly the public creditors, who, by the acts of the first of George I. and the third of George I. anterior to the eftablishment of the Sinking Fund, had (as the right honourable gentleman very fairly ftated) a valuable priority and preference in the payment of the intereft of those debts, which were declared to be national debts before the year 1716. Sir Grey Cooper admitted that it was competent to that Houfe, to vary the fecurity given to the public criditors, in the cafe ftated by the right honourable gentleman, of a duty repealed, and fubftituting another in its place, with the counter fecurity of the finking fund; but that being now gone, by the fubftitution of one general fund, in place of the aggragate fund, and the furpluffes, no variation or fhifting of the appropriation of fecurity ought or could be made confiftently with the extreme delicacy with which public faith to creditors ought to be preserved, without the confent of the public creditors, who were to be affected by any arrangement, however advantageous to the public. The right honourablegentleman feemed to be perfectly aware of this, and not to intend the leaft deviation from these principles, and he understood that provifion was to be made in the bill, for such notifications as fhould prevent any creditor from lofing the preference which he now poffeffed, if within a limited time he fignified his diffent to the plan.

Mr. Samuel Thornton corroborated that part of the Chan- Mr. Samuck cellor of the Exchequer's speech, in which he stated the great Thornton. inconveniencies under which merchants laboured, at prefent, from the complicated and very perplexed state of the duties and customs which had fo long prevailed. Mr. Thornton gave his full affent to the plan of confolidation and fimplifying which had been propofed, and declared that he had converfed with feveral intelligent officers of the customs, and many refpectable merchants upon it, all of whom agreed, that it would be a moft effential accommodation to the bufinefs of fhipping, entering, and landing of goods.

Lord

Lord Penrhyn faid that he must entreat the right honourable gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) to inform him Penrhyn. whether as there was to be a reduction in the duties on rum,

that

Mr. Chancellor Pitt.

Mr. Fox.

Mr. Chan

that was not one of the refolutions of the custom duties on the table?

Mr. Chancellor Pitt anfwered, that the article of fpirits made no one of the refolutions on the fubject of duties or cuftoms, but would be found among the refolutions relative to the duties on excife; and when they came to it, he would ftate to the noble Lord the grounds upon which it was formed, and the noble Lord would then have an opportunity of difcuffing it.

Mr. Fox believed that he thought exactly with the right honourable gentleman, who had fo clearly and perspicuously opened the plan to the Houfe, and that the objection which he had entertained, had been totally done away in the latter part of the right honourable gentleman's fpeech. What he meant was this: Did he understand the right honourable gentleman to have faid, that due notification would be given to every public creditor, and that all fuch as were afraid, and did not approve of taking the new fecurity of the general fund, with the collateral fecurity of the aids of the year, would have the option of the appropriated fund which the right honourable gentleman had defcribed? if this were fo, he certainly had no objection, because he had ever contended, that the fecurity given to the public creditor, when he lent his money, ought not to be changed without the confent of fuch public creditor. As the refolutions upon the commercial treaty with France were to be blended and joined to the refolutions for the consolidation of the cuftoms, he hoped, that when the right honourable gentleman came to those refolutions which related to the commercial treaty, he would afford the Committee an opportunity of debating and confidering of each of those refolutions diftinctly.

Mr. Chancellor Pitt begged leave to affure the right hocellor Pitt. nourable gentleman that he had correctly understood him: He certainly meant that there fhould be a full time allowed for notification to every public creditor of the intended change of the fecurity, and that each public creditor fhould have his option, either of accepting the new fecurity of the general fund, with the collateral fecurity of the aids of the year, which was undoubtedly a better fecurity than the public creditors had at prefent, or of taking the other security of an equivalent, as he had before defcribed. He could not admit, the argument of the right hanourable gentleman to the full extent, that the Houfe had no right to change the fecurity of the public creditor, becaufe, if it were laid down that the Houfe had in no cafe, where its own, convenience and advantage clearly fuggefted it, and where it could be done without any fort of danger to the public creditor, a right to change the fecurity, a tax found, upon trial, to be

either inexpedient, unequal, or unproductive could not be repealed, and a new tax fubftituted in lieu of it, which would, undoubtedly be a circumftance inconvenient in the extreme. With regard to the refolutions of the Houfe relative to the articles of the tariff, in the treaty of commerce and navigation with France, they were neceffarily and inviolably implicated and connected with the refolutions relative to the confolidation of the duties and customs, and unless confidered at the fame time, it would be impoffible for us to keep the ftipulations of the treaty, and treat France as the most favoured nation in respect to the duties on certain goods, &c. In two different points of view the refolutions on the commercial treaty bore upon the refolutions of the duties on cuftoms; the duties payable by France on certain articles of merchandize, were, according to the various exifting acts of Parliament enacted to be higher than thofe paid by other countries, and they muft, in confequence of the treaty, be altered to fuit the period of the ftipulated duration of the treaty.

Mr. Steele put the question in the general resolution, which having been agreed to, he was directed "to report progrefs, "and afk leave to fit again."

The Houfe being refumed, the queftion of adjournment was put, and the Houfe adjourned.

Tuesday, 27th February.

Mr. Dempfer obferved, that not having been prefent the Mr. Demp day before when the right honourable gentleman (Mr. Pitt) fer. had opened his very meritorious and politic plan for the confolidation of the duties on cuftoms, he wished to put a queftion to him, on a fubject very nearly connected with it, and which the right honourable gentleman, in the laft feffion, had coupled with it relating to the reformation of the abuse of bonds and cockets. Did the right honourable gentleman propofe to do any thing upon that fubject during the prefent feffion?

Mr. Chancellor Pitt faid, that as it was a fubject of fuch Mr. Chanconfequence, and one to which he had not given the neceffa- cellor Pitt. ry attention, he could not at prefent give a pofitive answer to the question of the honourable gentleman.

Mr. Dempster replied, that it was a bufinefs in which his Mr. Demp conftituents were fo materially interefted, that if nothing fter. was done in it during the prefent feffion, he must do the fubject the injustice of taking it up himself foon after the commencement of the ensuing feffion.

Mr. Chancellor Pitt begged leave to affure the honourable Mr. Changentleman, that it was highly probable, that before the end cellor Pitt VOL. XXI.

Xx

of

Mr. Demp

Rer.

Mr. Chan

of the feffion he fhould come forward with fome propofal on the fubject.

The Houfe then refolved itself into a Committee on the Bengal petition. Mr. Burgefs in the chair. After the counfel (Mr. Rous and Mr. Dallas) had retired from the bar,

Mr. Dempfier faid, that on the next open day he fhould move for leave to bring in a bill to repeal the East-India bill, agreeable to the prayer of the petition.

Mr. Chancellor Pit obferved, that there was fufficient cellor Pitt. time for the honourable gentleman to make his motion,' and that inftead of waiting for an open day, he ought to avail himfelf of the prefent day, which was kept open merely to accommodate hin, though other very important business had been neceffaril poftponed for that purpofe. It was abfurd, after having had the benefit of counfel, for the Committee to adjourn immediately, as it were in order to forget the arguments of the counfel, before they fhould come to a vote upon the fubject.

Mr. Dempfter.

Mr. Chan

Mr. Dempfer anfwered, that his reafon for deferring his motion was the thinnefs of the Houfe, which had determined him not to bring forward at that time a question of fuch importance; and, in confequence of his informing feveral gentlemen of his intention, many of them had left the House.

Mr. Chancellor Pitt contended, that it was rather a fincellor Pitt. gularly odd occafion for calling a counfel to the bar; but it was ftill more extraordinary to break up without proceeding farther. He hoped that gentlemen would confider it in that point of view, and not again bring the House into a fimilar aukward fituation."

Mr. Sheridan:

Mr. Dundas

Mr. Demp fer.

any

Mr. Sheridan faid, that the Houfe was too thin to make a motion of fuch great national importance; but if gentlemen did not mean to object to a motion for leave to bring in a bill to repeal the acts prayed againft, he prefumed that his ho nourable friend would have no objection to make the motion at the prefent juncture. It was, in his judgement, a motion of great magnitude and importance, and required mature deliberation. Many gentlemen had not had the opportunity of hearing the arguments of counfel, and therefore they ought to be afforded an opportunity of learning the na ture of thofe arguments.

Mr. Dundas obferved, that, although the counsel had, with great ability, done ample juftice to their clients, they nevertheless could not be faid to have advanced any arguments except fuch as had been urged again and again."

Mr. Demper declared, that many gentlemen had gone away under the idea that no motion would be made. Indeed, he had informed gentlemen that he would not make

any